In The Name Of All That Is #Stance

"offroadkarter" (04RauderDTR) 05/11/2014 at 18:25 • Filed to: stance sucks

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I would like to hear one person, any person, try to explain what the point of making your car so low that its undrivable is.

Reasons not allowed:

"Its for show": No, your 200k mile e36 325i is not a show car.

"Its their tastes and you should respect that": I didn't see anyone giving out respect to the fast and furious rice crowd and IMO this is the next phase that picked up where that took off.

aaaaannnnnddddd BEGIN!

Brian Silvestro > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 18:26

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I thought most of oppo hated ruini- I mean stancing cars.

KylesPerGallon > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 18:27

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I felt this way before, but then I found the Church of Latter Day Airbags and was reborn in the name of Stance.

Those spring cutters are satan worshipers though...

Milky > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 18:31

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Too low for what?

offroadkarter > Brian Silvestro 05/11/2014 at 18:31

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I got some pretty funny comments thrown at me while I was away this weekend about how I was the "worst kind of enthusiast" because I didn't "appreciate other tastes" in cars.

I'm sorry, but we as humans judge things and people every day. Anyone who doesn't believe that can go to hell.

EL_ULY > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 18:32

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Drive Free or Die.

From bro trucks, SLABs, to spec Miatas. I personally support all forms of recreational motoring. Some might not be my particular taste, but better that some anti-car hippie.

offroadkarter > Milky 05/11/2014 at 18:32

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now lets take that 240 over a moderately sized speed bump and see how much of the car is left on the pavement

Singhjr96 > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 18:32

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If you want to ruin your car, but my personal opinion, I don't like people who lower their cars so much they literally have to go sideways over a speed bump. But stance your car to the point where it actually is better to drive, and you can still go over speed bumps, that I approve of.

offroadkarter > KylesPerGallon 05/11/2014 at 18:33

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I have no problem with airbags. Static lowering on ebay coils is for plebs tho.

offroadkarter > EL_ULY 05/11/2014 at 18:33

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now why can't you respect the tastes of those anti-car hippie hybrid drivers?

offroadkarter > Singhjr96 05/11/2014 at 18:35

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If you have any bit of wheel gap I don't think your car can be considered "stanced".

Theres a big difference between lowering a car, and stancing a car. I lowered my car 1.5" and I have no issues with pot holes, speed bumps, or going up steep driveways.

Milky > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 18:35

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Most people don't drift over speed bumps, but if you did it might look like this.

Singhjr96 > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 18:37

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It just depends on how you like to look at and define stance. I use the word stance very liberally. To me it can mean lowered, or full out scraping on a leaf. Basically anything that isn't stock height. But I will agree there is a difference, I just tend to use the word more than I should.

offroadkarter > Singhjr96 05/11/2014 at 18:40

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Out of all the swagbarus I've seen at car meets who have the diagonal "illest" sticker in the back window, I don't think I could fit more than a finger between the tire and the wheel well on any of them.

I think they have something called the "shoe test" to. I've also seen the "beer can test" where if you can fit a beer can under your car, its to high.

offroadkarter > Milky 05/11/2014 at 18:41

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most people don't drift at all, because if most of these kids tried it, they end up like this

Team6.1 > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 18:42

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Hot rods are considered cool and they are slammed. Bro trucks lifted 10 feet that don't even go offroad? A crowd likes that. Rat rods don't have suspension, seats, any safety equipment, are low, and generally uncomfortable as shit and their is a crowd for them. What about cars with 15 subs in the back? I'm sure someone hates jeeps with no doors and no top cause it's loud, windy, cold/hot, and unsafe. What's the point of a supercharged 1000 hp street car? It costs a ton of money, can't corner, is loud, promotes unsafe behavior. Women wear 6" heals? I think Miatas are fucking stupid. No one died and made you cool car overlord.

And there is some challenge to get a car perfectly slammed. Redoing the suspenion, getting the right sized rim/tire/spacers. Fixing any rubbing. Caster/camber plates, panhard. It is a way to work on cars that is relatively cheap and makes the car uniquely yours

PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 18:43

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Well, we all know that stance started out as drifters cambering their cars to make sliding easier. Driving wise, having greater amounts of camber on a set of wheels increases the response of those wheels to turn in, at the cost of rubber lifespan. Another thing is that stance allows the car's wheels to be wider apart, technically giving the car more balance in corners. It also allows for the wider-apart wheels without breaking the "wheels must be under fenders" law that a lot of places have. A stance car also slices through the air better, just like a regular lowered car would. Less air under car=go faster, right? Also, note that a good number of stanced cars have some form of air suspension. This allows for height varying form "on the frame" to about 2 inches of ground clearance. Yes these systems are expensive and heavy, but air suspension does dramatically increase the ride quality (ex. 2004 Touareg with no air suspension rides a lot worse than a 2004 Touareg with air suspension)

Keep in mind, I'm talking about functional stance, and not "55 degrees camber" stance. That is just dumb IMO.

E30Joe drives a Subaru > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 18:43

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"Stop liking what I don't like"

offroadkarter > E30Joe drives a Subaru 05/11/2014 at 18:48

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"stop disliking what I like!"

E30Joe drives a Subaru > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 18:50

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Didn't say I liked it. That doesn't mean I go around telling people that their car is ruined. Or that they are less of an enthusiast compared to someone else.

Singhjr96 > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 18:50

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OK since you called me out on the definition of stance, I will use it properly at least for this comment. I like it when someone lowers a car, and theres still about an inch of space between the tire and the fender. Why? Because at that point you have lowered a car to the point where it handles and performs better, yet you don't have to scrape anywhere, or worry about breaking body work or tires when you accidentally good over a pot hole you didn't see. Now stancing a car where you tuck the wheels under, that is where I draw the line and call it stupid. There's a thing I like to call functional stance, which basically means a little bit of chamber, and the car is also lowered. it just pisses me off when I see a car like this, there's no point in doing this to a car, it just makes it perform worse, it doesn't look good, and there are very few cars who can properly pull it off(BUT I do support airbags)

offroadkarter > PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power 05/11/2014 at 18:51

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Taking something you see in a track environment and putting it on a street environment where it has absolutely no use.. wouldn't that make you a "poser"? I can understand where drift cars or track cars have more camber than usual but some kid with an e30 lowering his car to where he's been through 3 exhausts systems due to speed bumps is hardly a race car. Its the same story with people lifting trucks and never taking them offroad.

offroadkarter > Singhjr96 05/11/2014 at 18:52

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I think the off camber wheels is technically getting into "hellaflush" territory which is the next step up the ladder of automotive retardedness.

offroadkarter > E30Joe drives a Subaru 05/11/2014 at 18:54

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Stance and hellaflush tards are doing it because its a "cool" trend. They are the new posers of the automotive world. They picked up where the early-mid 00's fast and furious ricer crowd left off.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 18:55

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Alright, I'll bite. Why do people on here drive miatas in the winter? Why do people dump a car they drive everyday on coilovers for the worst ride known to man (and no, even "soft" coilovers are still hard as rocks)? Why do people on here daily drive a jeep wrangler with no doors? Why do people on here insist on driving a RWD car? Why do people on here void the warranty of a brand new car by flashing the ECU and putting on an aftermarket exhaust? Why do people on here insist on buying used cars? Why do people on here drive whatever it is they drive?

The answer to all of these questions is because it's their car, their money, and their opinion and expression of how *their* car should be. Just because you don't understand or disagree doesn't make their answer wrong.

Singhjr96 > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 18:57

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Agreed, Hella flush is stupid, that is the worst of all. We serioulsy need to come up with a set of definitions on what is considered stance and what is not. A set of definitions that is universally agreed upon in the car community.

Milky > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 18:58

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We both know more muscle bro-stangs end up on the side of the road than any other car.

offroadkarter > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 05/11/2014 at 18:59

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driving a miata in the winter hardly compares to making your car unusable than going to instagram and bragging about ripping your front bumper off.

Tell me, why should I respect someone who makes their car unsafe for the road by using stretched tires on wide rims or lowering the car with cheap parts or unsafe methods.

offroadkarter > Milky 05/11/2014 at 18:59

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you should respect their choice to drive badly!

offroadkarter > Singhjr96 05/11/2014 at 19:00

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By the time we agree to what that definition is, we'll have already moved onto the next stupid trendy thing.

My vote is for carolina stance

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 19:00

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I'll accept any culture that doesn't affect me. Cars as unsafe as this... http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl… Yeah they could affect my safety on the road. Fuck stance.

offroadkarter > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 05/11/2014 at 19:02

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thank you for having some common sense and not defaulting to that "you should respect the interests of other enthusiasts even if you dont like it" bleeding heart bullshit that some other people are saying. I'm willing to bet half of the people who do this shit don't even know what "camber" is.

PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 19:03

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The same can be said for your lowered camry. I assume you don't drive that car hard all the time since it's your daily driver. Therefore, It could also be called "poser" for . Also, on the "went through 3 exhausts on his E30" guy, that's just stupidly low. Here is a photo of what I see as OK stance:

This is a good example. There is ground clearance, and I doubt a properly mounted exhaust is scarping it's way down the road in this.
lower more than that is just stupid, like this:

First off, any change in road pitch will make this car bottom out, second, it isn't even aesthetically pleasing.

offroadkarter > PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power 05/11/2014 at 19:05

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stretched tires + camber out of whack = beyond an opinion, its just unsafe period.

Also I hope "your camry" was used in a third person sense.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 19:08

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Any of the things I listed can be dangerous and unsafe. This does include lowering your car. Like anything else in the automotive world there is a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it. This is the latest tuning fad and so everyone and their brother wants their car to do it even if they have a very tight budget. It's no different in my eyes than the people who skyjack a pickup that goes on two wheels to make a simple turn Or people who strip a civic of all interior components and airbags to make it lighter despite driving it in traffic every day. Or people who ram 500hp out of a turbocharged 2.0L evo motor and can barely keep it running under ideal conditions. By all means, bash the people who stretch tires and use a bat to roll their fenders and have zero fender gap when in motion. They're fucking retarded. But there are plenty of ways to do it right. Like I posted before, here's how I did mine on a budget of about 2000$ for a car and upgrades. My base car was a 1998 jetta and after a few weekends of work here's what I had

Yes that is my car working just fine in the dead of winter. I left my wheels at stock width so I wouldn't have to roll my fenders. The coilovers I had had some more room and travel since the wheel could actually tuck up into the fender naturally. I also had stock camber and toe angles thanks to a professional alignment so the car was basically riding as the engineers intended it to. Never had an issue besides potholes claiming a tire early on in the project but that's not exactly unique to lowered cars....

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 19:11

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Yup I'm fine with styles that I think are ugly as long as they don't affect how roadworthy the car is. This though is ridiculous, I wonder how accepting we'll be when one of these things has a blowout from the fenders cutting a groove in the tire and smashes into someone or a subframe bolt shears. My safety comes before your "individuality" and that's how it should be.

offroadkarter > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 05/11/2014 at 19:11

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Please tell me the safe way to put a 195/35 tire on a 9.5" wide wheel?

Or the safe way to drive around with -3 degrees of camber?

offroadkarter > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 05/11/2014 at 19:14

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I took these pictures at a VW dealer last year. What do you think happened to this car?

But I'm supposed to take this shit seriously? Really?

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 19:17

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Please read my response. Stretching tires is dangerous. And you can use airbags to get camber if you want to get those crazy camber shots. If you don't have the $$$ to get such a setup then you don't get the camber. That's why I had my car aligned to factory defaults - I used factory width tires and I even ran about the same overall diameter wheel/tire package. I didn't have the money for the airbags in my budget so I set it up based on that fact.

The reason why the "fast and furious" crowd gets zero respect is because they are generally ignorant of cars and think tuning culture = street racing culture. From what it sounds like, you think that all "stance" cars = dangerously done. That isn't the case.

PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 19:18

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You can argue that many things are unsafe, and I will agree that tire stretching is quite stupid. Fact is, stance is purely for aesthetic purposes. You can lift a WRX a bit to make it look like a rally car, but your average joe driving it will never be Colin McRae. Fact is, 80% of car mods will turn out to be aesthetic, since they do not have a use in daily life.

And yeah, I meant to use it in 3rd person. I'm not trying to hate on your car, in all honesty I think your lowered camry looks bitchin'.

Singhjr96 > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 19:19

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Wth is Carolina stance? But Here's another rung up from hellaflush:

offroadkarter > Singhjr96 05/11/2014 at 19:20

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carolina squat, I always get those two stupid trends mixed up my bad

http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/carolina-squat…

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 19:20

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I assume he had a blowout and is soon to have another? It sickens me that this guy could lose a tire on the highway and wipe someone out, just for a fad that people will laugh at a few years down the line.

EL_ULY > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 19:21

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I'm an ex Lexus master tech, I support hybrid technology. For eco and performance. Anti car and hybrid hippes are two different peeps. Prius is a neat car full of tech. Prius specific motorsport is needed but for now, a very promising Toyota TS040 win at LeMans is crazy awesome. A hippie setting SUV's on fire is never cool.

But again, i respect all motoring. Life is easier once you do. From Camry to 918.

offroadkarter > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 05/11/2014 at 19:21

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yeah but we have to respect his "individualism" (driving a stance car makes you as much as an individual as owning an iphone). He's a real enthusiast just like us.

Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 19:22

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We're not front page - you should know better.

offroadkarter > EL_ULY 05/11/2014 at 19:22

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hey now, they have their beliefs just like we do. You know what Jesus said right?

"Let he, who drives the brown diesel miata wagon, cast the first stone"

Singhjr96 > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 19:23

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OMG why in the hell would you do that? That is stupid, what is the point of that? How does that even look good, or appeal to someone's taste?

offroadkarter > PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power 05/11/2014 at 19:24

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Back in my day, someone who made a ton of modifications to a car for the soul purpose of appearances was called a ricer!

offroadkarter > Singhjr96 05/11/2014 at 19:25

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I don't know but its pretty ****ing funny to look at lol

its just another trend that we need to respect!

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 19:26

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Yep just another fad which would be fine if it wasnt so harmful. Real enthusiasts respect other road users enough not to purposely build a dangerous vehicle. They understand their cars enough to know that smashing off oil pans and tires cut down the canvas = bad.

Milky > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 19:31

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Says the guy who won't respect some peoples choice to drive low.

EL_ULY > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 19:32

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exactly, Drive Free or Die. Drive what you love. Car life is a lot easier without the hate. From beige, to stance, to group B monsters. Love all motoring!

Singhjr96 > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 19:35

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It's another trend that we need to live through, not respect. But I may have thought up of the reason why people do this. You know how drag racers do the same thing because when they pop a big wheely, the tires come down hard, so they jack up the front as a way of dampening the shock of coming down. Well that might be how this trend started. But seriously, how did the hella flush and stance scene even come to be?

PetarVN, GLI Guy, now with stupid power > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 19:40

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Well, I don't think that's true. I grew up in that time period as well, and the way I saw rice was badly done budget mods.

...I think it's obvious you and I have quite differing oppopinions on stance here...
why don't we just agree to disagree?

E30Joe drives a Subaru > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 19:49

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And that's where I get off the train. You almost were convincing until you called them tards. Grow up.

EuroJosh > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 20:39

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Except most of those people act up on the street. So they're not really posing, they just get their kicks in a different way.

EuroJosh > offroadkarter 05/11/2014 at 20:59

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After reading through your comments, I think you have a great misconception of what stance is. You claim everybody defaults to saying "its their money blah blah they can do what they want", but it also seems like you default to referencing, not stance cars, but low budget, low understanding examples of stance cars. You're not interested in that world so you don't see it for what it is. There are a plethora of people who do it right. The stance world as a whole is moving away from tire stretching and crazy camber. However, those things will still exist to achieve the closest wheel to fender possible. But that's not all stance is. Stance varies greatly. From totally undriveable static cars, to pretty sweet bagged ones. A style growing in popularity is meat. Stanced cars that manage to look good and be low, with a good amount of tire. Respecting does not mean liking or agreeing with something, it means not outwardly speaking against it. You don't walk around, see someone, and yell "DAMN. You are one ugly motherfucker" because that would be disrespectful. So love it or hate it, just leave them be. I like all forms of vehicles, so I'm coming from a pretty level headed point of view.